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This owner forum was created by J/105 owners for the purpose
of sharing experiences and tips on maintaining and handling their J/105, and
to exchange ideas on other J/105 related topics. It is not a classified or
commercial advertising medium. The webmaster reserves the right to remove
postings which are not related to the J/105 or are commercial in nature.
Thank you and enjoy!
If you would like to add your comments click here. Open Forum entries (newest first):For the coming winter storage season I need to either buy or build a steel cradle for my J105. I would be particularly interested in hearing about any source for plans to build a cradle, but would also be interested in locating sources for purchasing a cradle. Jack Rose <rosej@uillinois.edu> Chicago, IL USA - Tuesday, June 30, 1998 at 10:52:02 (EDT) In a discussion about optional equipment for a new J105, a suggestion was made to install single, long sections of T-track that would handle sheeting for the standard jib as well as for a No. 1 or No. 2 genoa, instead of the separate sections of track that are the usual configuration. Does anyone know if this arrangement would be considered class legal? Bruce Lages <Lages@msn.com> USA - Sunday, June 28, 1998 at 23:09:15 (EDT) Just get the North sails tuning guide, itīs excellent! To those of that ainīt have; get it, if you are fresh the guide will help you sailing faster quicker. #213 will be under sail this week. Per Boeymo <boeymo@online.no> Fredrikstad, Norway - Thursday, June 25, 1998 at 17:05:56 (EDT) Does anyone have information on what an appropriate PHRF would be for a Beneteau 36s7 - Presently our sailing club has assigned a spinnaker PHRF of 136 and a non-spinnaker PHRF of 154, but has said they lack information on what the appropriate PHRF should be. Does anyone know if this is reasonable? For example, we have a Hunter 376 with a spinnaker PHRF of 138 and a non-spinnaker PHRF of 156. It seems to be a much slower boat than the Beneteau. I would appreciate any input. Please E-mail me at 110260.1747@compuserve.com or call or fax me at (918) 749-1213. Thank you. Harry Potter <110260.1747@compuserve.com> Tulsa, OK USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 19:57:35 (EDT) I am interested in purchasing a used class spinnaker for the J-105 (77 square meters). If you have one to sell, please E-mail me at 110260.1747@compuserve.com or call me at (918) 749-1213. Thanks. Harry J. Potter <110260.1747@compuserve.com> Tulsa, OK USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 19:51:03 (EDT) I have a shoal draft (5.5 feet draft) J-105. I would like to exchange keels with a deep draft (6.5 feet draft) J-105 owner. Please E-mail me at 110260.1747@compuserve.com or call me at (918) 749-1213 if you are interested. Harry J. Potter <110260.1747@compuserve.com> Tulsa, OK USA - Thursday, June 18, 1998 at 19:48:16 (EDT) I have seen several questions about Team McLube Sailkote listed here. The website is www.888TeamMcLube.com and we answer many questions as well as offer helpful suggestions on how and where to apply. Ward McClatchy <tmclube@voicenet.com> Aston, PA USA - Wednesday, June 17, 1998 at 17:41:47 (EDT) I recently registered my old man's Ericson 38 with PHRF here on the Chesapeake Bay. Three questions they asked as regards the genoa were: Does the boat have roller furling? If yes, is the drum above or below deck? Does the genoa have a UV cover on the leech? The Chesapeake PHRF organization has a website that may give more info. Jonathan Bigden <jbigden@polkaudio.com> Annapolis, MD USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 20:03:24 (EDT) Anyone have any comments on the difference in "full-hoist" vs "furling" genoas when racing PHRF? I am told that PHRF doesn't measure the luff length and therefore there is no extra penalty for a full hoist (even though they have more sail area). I have mine cut to be furled and strongly prefer it. One of my competitors, however, is full-hoist and we rate the same PHRF number. Is there any noticeable difference in performance or should I not worry about it? ian farquharson <ianf@speedware.com> toronto, on canada - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 18:00:08 (EDT) The Loos rod tension gauge is also in the 1998 West Marine catalog, page 469. There are two sizes, West P/N 301770 (Loos P/N RT-10) for -4 to -10 rod and West P/N 301740 (Loos P/N RT-11) for -12 to -22 rod. Both are priced at $186.99. They are described as being the "stay on" type so you can measure the tension as you adjust the turnbuckle. I don't know what rod sizes the J/105 uses, but it probably spans the size range so that both size gauges would be required... Stuart R Burnett hull 198 LEGACY <srburnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Monday, June 15, 1998 at 10:41:22 (EDT) Yes a Loos gauge for rod is available. Check Layline for info. Tom Gore <tomgore@compuserve.com> Ft. Worth, Tx USA - Friday, June 12, 1998 at 17:15:02 (EDT) Re: Rig Tension Measurement. I understand from our sailmakers that there isindeed a Loos gauge made for rod rigging. Supposed to be very expensive. I have, however, yet to locate any info. on such a device. Principle should be same as for wire rigging, except pressure to deflect will be greater and deflections will be very small. I agree that, if such a device exists, it would take a lot of the guess work out of settings. Also would contribute to more accurate, race-to-race setup. Right now we set ours up in spring and tune up. Then we preserve set points for balance of season with our life. (We do adjust forestay length for wind conditions.) But I have to believe that set up in March when it's 38 outside isn't the same tension in July when it's 95 outside. Does 60 ft. of aluminum mast grow at same coefficient of thermal expansion as 60 ft of rod? Somehow, I doubt it. Plus boat has to respond to rig tension over time as well, leading to changes as season progresses. Hope someone finds one. Let us all know. Andy Skibo <adsaas@aol.com> West Chester, PA USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 20:28:21 (EDT) I would like to know if anyone has a good, reliable/repeatable way to measure the rig tension on the J105. Coming from smaller boats with wire rigging, I badly miss the relatively precise readings that could be made with the Loos tension gauge. A reliable way to measure the shroud tension is the only way I know to take the magic out of rig setup... Any ideas? Anders Landin/crew Walloping Swede <Anders.Landin@Sun.com> SF Bay Area, CA USA - Wednesday, June 10, 1998 at 13:31:15 (EDT) Todd Berman asks whether adding a cleat on the mast for the spinnaker halyard might be illegal under class rule 1.3 "No alterations or modifications are permitted unless explicitly permitted by these rules." This rule needs to be interpreted in a reasonable manner. You will see lots of modifications recommended in the website, such as footrests, ventilation systems, cleat covers, and other organizers such as cleats or line bags. These don't seem to affect performance or boat handling (however a purist could argue they do). The line starts to get more blurry when you add a gadget to pump the backstay from the sailing position. Then there are jib/genoa car adjusting systems that people add for PHRF, but they are not permitted to use for OD racing. But I don't think that the hardware recommended for spinnaker handling crosses the line. Just my opinion. Nelson Weiderman <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Tuesday, June 09, 1998 at 09:48:29 (EDT) As used here, STROP means "a single connector between the clew of the spinnaker and the TWO spinnaker sheets". The dictionary defines it as "a thin, flexible piece of leather, used esp. to sharpen a razor." The "strop" on my spinnakers is some sort of multi-colored spectra, something like 1/4" Spectron 12. It is about 15-18" long with an eye spliced in the lazy end. Approximately 12" additional has been unraveled, splayed out, and stitched into the clew patch. My clews have NO grommets, just the clew patches and this "strop" coming out 18" to the eye. We then spliced the standard tapered spectra spinnaker sheets from Hall spars to a Tylaska snap shackle, which is snapped to the eye of the "strop". The whle setup is very light, easy to disconnect, and pretty much snag proof. I'll ask my sailmaker if there is a more appropriate name for this "thingy". Stuart Burnett hull 198 LEGACY <srburnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 16:20:52 (EDT) Can anyone tell me what strop is? Hate to sound ignorant but I have no idea. What does it look like etc. I am presuming from the discussion that it helps prevent the clew catching the forestay on jibes?? ian farquharson <ianf@speedware.com> toronto, on canada - Thursday, June 04, 1998 at 12:11:57 (EDT) One thought about adding a 3-4 foot strop to the spinnaker. Remember that this will LENGTHEN, NOT SHORTEN your spinnaker sheets. The length of the spinnaker sheet is determined by the maximum point the lazy sheet must reach to on the leeward side of the boat. Adding anything between the attachment point of the sheets and the clew means the lazy sheet will have to reach that much further back. Of course, the question is how much more is worth it. I've added about 18" to my clew (see post below), but is 3-4 feet worth it? What advantage is gained? Stuart Burnett hull 198 LEGACY <srburnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 17:49:34 (EDT) My sailmaker (Quantum Fishing Bay), put an 18" spectra strop on both of my spinnakers (77 & 110) that we attach the sheets to. This was described in the spring newsletter, so I won't go back through it here, but it's worked well for us. I can't imagine how adding a line to the clew could be construed as changing the size of the sail. Also, we've spliced both sheets to a snap shakle to allow easier removal an a cleaner connection to the eye in the strop. The only sail handling problems we've had was winding up the spinnaker halyard on the jib top swivel when we were dropping the spinnaker and unrolling the jib at the same time. Stuart Burnett hull 198 LEGACY <srburnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 17:44:25 (EDT) I talked to my sailmaker regarding Jeff Johnstone's idea of adding a single 3 to 4 foot "strop" to the spinnaker clew and then attaching spin sheets to it. He felt that this would be regarded as a change in the clew location for measurement purposes, causing a change in measured sail dimensions. To implement, we would need to change our rules to accomodate this approach, and hope that PHRF committees don't get too technical. Tom Thayer <Thomas_Thayer@pahv.xerox.com> Portola Valley, CA USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 16:24:38 (EDT) A spinnaker halyard cam cleat on the mast (as described below - R Levitt 6/1/98) would be a great addition. However, my concern would be that class rule 1.3 would find this "illegal" for class events. Thoughts? Todd Berman <tberman@rc.com> Killingworth , CT USA - Wednesday, June 03, 1998 at 11:17:01 (EDT) SPINAKER HANDLING TIPS: With so many new J105 owners now it may be valuable to share a few chute handling techniques which have helped us. We hoist the chute out of the foward hatch . To keep from losing or twisting the head of the chute we installed a small eyebolt over the entrance to the foward cabin to which we tied a piece of line attached to a carabiner The line is long enough that the bow person can reach in and pull it up to attach the halyard. The "squirrel" ie the person who goes below to help retrieve the chute immediatly reattaches the caribeener to the head of the chute before it can get twisted. For the hoist, JBoats Chesepeake installed a cam cleat to the side of the mast. The bow person can quickly hoist the chute herself with no need for the pit to tail the halyard .Just let the halyard bunch at the foot of the mast and clean it up later. The cam cleat must NOT be in line with the lower block or it will self lock if the halyard is winched in from the cockpit leading to panic at the take down. The bow person can also be the one to furl the jib by just pulling the furling line on deck. This can also be cleaned up later from the cockpit. When jibing, first completely tighten the halyard and the tack line. This opens the slot on an inside jibe and help prevent wraps. The working sheet is flaked to run quickly through the jibe and is helped through the turning block by the mainsail trimmer. Do not pull in fast on the new sheet until you see the clew cross in front of the forestay. The helmsperson must steer though the jibe slowly enough to keep the chute from fouling the headstay. The bowperson quickly pulls down and back on the clew to further help the sail through. On the takedowns, we had our sailmaker install a strap in the middle of the foot to which we tie some light line. This is used to have something to to grab if you wish to bring in the chute under the jib. For windward take downs we have a line attached to the tack which the squirrel can use to help bring the chute in around the forestay. Coming in under the jib do NOT ease the take line until the chute is down. On a windward take down ease the tack line early. Finally, wet sand the inner rim of the pole sleeve which comes from the factory quite rough. Then spray the pole with Mclube. You won't believe how easily the pole will slide back. If any one has any other racing tips I'd look foward to hearing them Rich Levitt <riclevitt@aol.com> northfield, nj USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 19:23:08 (EDT) In response to Craig- It's actually not desirable to have continuous spinnaker sheets. Main reason is that if spinnaker gets tangled around sheets below after a takedown, it's better to be able to disconnect one or both sheets at the clew rather than unreeving the spin sheets or trying to pull the entire kite through tangles in the line. On the J/90 we specified the spin sheets with looped ends, then we took a 3-4 foot Spectra strop with a loop at one end, and ran the Spectra loop through both spin sheet loops. Then we ran the Spectra cut end through the Spectra loop to "lock" in the spin sheets. Finally we tied the Spectra cut end to the clew of the spinnaker with a bowline. The result is no catching the headstay on the jibes, and easy detachment from the clew in case of tangles. We're looking at this as a possible standard change on the J/80 and J/105. Jeff Johnstone <jeff@jboats.com> USA - Monday, June 01, 1998 at 17:08:21 (EDT) I've just posted the Lake Michigan and Narragansett Bay adjustments (relative to the One-Design Rig) used to arrive at other PHRF ratings. These are more useful than the numbers that appear in the PHRF book (which are often incorrect and out of date). If you know of the adjustments in your area, please send them along to me. Thanks. Nelson Weiderman <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Thursday, May 21, 1998 at 09:13:49 (EDT) Those of us in the Chesapeake Bay would like to extend a warm invitation to our fellow owners to join us at the Screwpile Regatta, July 19-21, 1998, in Solomons Island, Maryland, for three days of one-design racing, great parties and small-town hospitality. Most of the Chesapeake 105s will be there and we would be very happy to host any out-of-town boats. Screwpile is the best racing south of Block Island all season. Full information can be found at http://spectrumsciences.com/screwple.htm. There is also an overnight, 55 mile feeder race from Annapolis to Solomons; let me know if you need information. Chris Groobey <j.christopher.groobey@chadbourne.com> Washington, DC USA - Wednesday, May 20, 1998 at 20:41:10 (EDT) I wish the spin sheet that I got was one piece also. Is there some clever way to tie on two spin sheets instead of two bowlines. I just took delivery of Andiamo #176 this past weekend. Maiden voyage was a 64 mile broad reach on Lake Michigan (Waukegan,IL to Mich City,IN) in constant 10-14 knot winds - IT DOES NOT GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS for my money. The J/105 was a dream... Craig Juel <winston@netnitco.net> Valparaiso, IN USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 20:38:03 (EDT) Tomas, you do not actually tie a knot in the continuous jib sheet. What you do is find the exact middle of the sheet, fold it and push the "fold" through the clew. This forms a little loop on the other side of the clew. You then take both of the sheets and feed them all the way through this loop and pull tight when you are done. Its advantage is that it is small and doesn't catch on the shrouds as much as a couple of big bowline knots. I leave it on the class jib all the time and have gotten two regular sheets which I use on the #2 and #1 genoas for PHRF racing. ian farquharson <ianf@speedware.com> toronto, on canada - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 17:11:09 (EDT) How do people use the 'continuous' jib sheet that comes with the boat? Is there any reason not to cut it into two equal lengths and tie each on separately? If people use it in one piece what knot do you use to attach it to the clew? Tomas Petkus <tpetkus@barristers.com> Chicago, IL USA - Thursday, May 14, 1998 at 15:45:23 (EDT) With respect to polar diagrams, the ones on the website just reflect performance with "class" sails (I believe). Those of unfortunates who have to race PHRF would ideally like a polar that reflects performance with each of the #1, #2 and #3 genoas and also the 3 different chutes. Both target speeds and angles vary considerably. If anyone has something like this it would be greatly appreciated - many thanks ian farquharson <ianf@speedware.com> toronto, on canada - Tuesday, May 12, 1998 at 10:46:44 (EDT) Partner or season charterer wanted for just-commissioned "Jay Boat" slipped at J-Port Annapolis. Talk to me--I'm flexible. (301) 951-1035. John Kirchr <jkircher@weta.com> Annapolis, MD USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 17:34:56 (EDT) Chris, check the "Racing Tips" section of the website. There's a polar diagram as well as target boatspeeds and downwind angles for various windspeeds. Nelson Weiderman <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 16:10:10 (EDT) Optimum Downwind Sailing Angles - I'm looking for the Polars/Downwind sailing angles/Target Boat Speeds/ etc. for various wind speeds, and spinnakers for the 105. Does anyone have them or know where to get them? Chris Chesley <chris81554@aol.com> Tustin, CA USA - Friday, May 08, 1998 at 11:36:56 (EDT) I am in need of some cruising J105 sails. Anyone have any older sails (full set) that they would like to sell? I need delivery/cruising sails (prefer legal ones to have as back up). Please contact me at dahagler@aol.com. Or if you have any good leads on used sails. Dave David Hagler <dahagler@aol.com> Annapolis, MD USA - Wednesday, May 06, 1998 at 21:32:27 (EDT) Does anyone know of any software that can be downloaded to simplify reducing sights. I used to have a Merlin calculator that did this, but the batteries died and the programs expired with them. We are doing a delivery from St. Martin to Newport, RI in several weeks and I would like to brush up on my celestial navigation. Incidentally, if anyone has sailed these waters (St. Martin-Bermuda-Newport)this time of the year, I would be very interested in any advice or thoughts you may have. Dean Dietrich <deanj105@aol.com> Tiburon, CA USA - Tuesday, May 05, 1998 at 12:36:31 (EDT) Per, that's great news you bring us about J/105 activity in Norway...which historically brings J Boats full circle. It has taken 375 years. Some very persistent Norwegian boat building and design genes remain to this day in the Johnstone clan. It appears that this influence maybe recognized for what it is by at least 3 of your compatriots. I believe it was in 1623 when one of our "favorite" ancestors arrived in America, a shipwright by the name of John from Bergen, Norway. He settled in New Amsterdam (now New York City)and not having a last name, became known as John Bergen, from whence Bergen Co. New Jersey came. If John Bergen was unable to contribute his boatbuilding skills to the improvement of sailing in Norway in his lifetime, hopefully King Harald, you and the rest of the seafaring community will honor his recent contribution no matter how indirect, delayed, or small it may be. Bob Johnstone <jjj@gwi.net> Little Cranberry Island, ME USA - Saturday, May 02, 1998 at 17:03:38 (EDT) It seems to be three 105īs in Norway next year, incredible, last year there where none! The Norwegian dealer is working for a 105 OD regatta this season , so we hope the English boats will come over. On J/105 matter this site brings all the sailers together, itīs great! Per Boeymo <boeymo@online.no> Fredrikstad, Norway - Friday, May 01, 1998 at 15:19:20 (EDT) Just wanted to acknowledge the excellent job done last weekend by Jahn Tihansky and his crew at J/World Annapolis during the J/105 Speed Weekend. The J/World crew provided a season's worth of practice and races in two days. As always, sailing out of the J/Port facility was great. I just love seeing all those J/Boats! Thanks also to Jay Corcoran for allowing the "Deltaville" skippers to share his boat after our plans to bring a boat up fell through. It's owners like Jay who support the class and other owners that will make the J/105 class strong and bring new people into the fleet! Stuart Burnett <SRBurnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Thursday, April 30, 1998 at 12:18:54 (EDT) I sail some with Terry Laughren /Winged Victory/Fleet #6. Terry has some crazing in the hull (visible through baltiplate) just aft of the prop strut. Tried tightening the bolts on the strut plate from inside the boat, they seem tight. Any body else experience this? Anything to worry about? Thanks Ed Cesare <ECesare@AOL.com> Norwalk, CT USA - Tuesday, April 28, 1998 at 16:38:24 (EDT) John Kircher and I have connected on the Whitbread start so there is no need to reply to his message. FYI for the other owners and the Johnstones, only J/Boats (105s, 30s and 24s) are being used as picket boats for the Baltimore/Annapolis restart of the Whitbread on May 3. We will be creating a 1x7 mile safety zone for the W60s to race in for the first few miles of the leg to France. Many other classes offered their services but the J/Boats were chosen because of the strength of their classes, the attractiveness and uniformity of the boats and, of course, the quality of their owners and crews. Keep an eye out for us on the ESPN highlight shows. Chris Groobey <j.christopher.groobey@chadbourne.com> Washington, DC USA - Friday, April 24, 1998 at 14:54:54 (EDT) Who do I contact to volunteer Hull #208 to be an Annapolis Whitbread re-start picket boat the weekend of May 2 & 3? "Jay Boat" will be ready to go then, a bit earlier then I expected. John Kircher <jkircher@weta.com> Washington, DC USA - Thursday, April 23, 1998 at 12:25:18 (EDT) I have noticed the discussion about "pros on board". There is not doubt that this is a touchy issue as pros have clearly ruined many classes. The Mumm 36 class is a perfect example. Every regatta, the loyal owner drivers wonder who is going to be sailing which boat for each regatta. The thrill of beating a Chris Larson is great, but the fleet is tiny, so its no fun. These are great boats and could have been a very strong fleet, but the class made a decision to go pro. The same is true for the Corel 45s and 1D 48s. The latter two boats are extremely expensive programs and that is the way it goes. The Farr 40 has tried to curb the problem to minor success. The top boats don't have owner drivers. The Cat 1 drivers they have are of questionable status as well. It is an inexact science of defining pros which is not perfect but works to some extent. Mumm 30s have seen the same thing. Sailmakers have "part ownership" and then drive. It is kind of a cop out. As far as the owner driver rule is concerned for the 105 - - keep it, unquestionably. I think that eliminating pros to sail at all is a mistake. They should be limited, but not eliminated. The presense of pros at a regatta and participating in the fleet is helpful. At a major class event, having a pro on board can be a major difference in some people's participation. If the sailmaker of other pro is doing his job properly, it is to present his/herself in such a way to educate to help make sailors better even when they aren't present. In a sense if you let a pro take over your boat it is your own fault. He/she won't be there all the time so it would be in the crew's best interest to do what you can to learn from them. Is that not what industry professionals should be for? It should be noted that last years very well attended J 30 NAs in Newport were laden with pros crewing on various boats. I know that the top three boats had pros and I know that four other boats had pros as well, maybe more. I know that this had a positive effect on participation as well as improving the competition. Keep the OD rule, but don't shut out pro participation. Tim Dawson <dawson@ids.net> Newport, RI USA - Wednesday, April 22, 1998 at 17:01:26 (EDT) On previous boats, I've used traditional antifouling paints. I'm about to have my J/105 done with VC-Tar and VC-17. Are the benefits of VC-17 significant enough to sacrifice antifouling benefits? I am in freshwater. Thanks... Craig Juel <winston@netnitco.net> Valparaiso, IN USA - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 19:53:37 (EDT) Wes - get a wheel installed - seriously. Even if you generally prefer a tiller, the wheel on the J105 is soooo good. It feels like a tiller! It also has the advantage of the pedestal acting as a foot brace when heeled. I don't think its so expensive to retrofit. ian farquharson <ianf@speedware.com> toronto, on canada - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 17:41:37 (EDT) When I purchased my boat it came with a Spinlock tiller extension. I have had nothing but problems with it. Almost every year one of the plastic parts on it breaks. I am considering replacing it with one of Forespar's OceanRacer models. Can anyone comment on OceanRacer's durability? Also, can I rotate the handle to a more comfortable steering orientation if I choose to (ie horizontal - vertical or any point inbetween)? ....Wes Herdman Skipper pNeuma J hull #30 Wes Herdman <gonesailingwes@bc.sympatico.ca> Ladysmith, BC Canada - Monday, April 20, 1998 at 16:49:16 (EDT) I would like to offer my comments on the advantages and the disadvantages caused by launching the chute from the hatch "bagless" as FORE DECK- BOY would say. I sail on Plum Crazy with F.D. Boy and i would first like to clear something up for the rest of you out there, I am the fore- deck captian and F.D. Boy assists me. I feel that launching start from the hatch shows the greatest advanteges during short legged coarses. This meathod allows you to have the chute ready to be launched again in a very short time, mainy by eliminating having to re-pack and re-attach the chute. On longer coarses when the bow man has enough time I feel that the chute should be re-packed. Granted it is time consuming but it will useually result in a correct, twist free launch. I hope that I have answered any questions anyone may have on this issue. foredeck captian <jeddski@aol.com> ocean city, nj USA - Friday, April 17, 1998 at 19:43:23 (EDT) A lot of excellent points have been raised. I'd just like to add that the J/105 class would not have had its own start at Block Island for the last two years had it not been for the participation of members of the Johnstone family. They didn't steer, but they encouraged the boats to get there in the first place and then they helped the owners sail their boats faster and smarter (one Johnstone per boat). It was a real thrill to see how many "Johnstone boats" you could beat. It was a great exercise in building the class. We certainly don't want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" by restricting such participation. Nelson Weiderman <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Thursday, April 16, 1998 at 09:25:26 (EDT) Once again, the interloper from the J/30 class chimes in! I'd like to reinforce what Bob Johnstone advocated on the owner-driver rule in the J/105 class. We've had a similar rule in the J/30 since the class was formed and I feel that overall it's worked quite well. When someone becomes an owner (whether they are in the marine industry or not) they have a pretty high level of commitment to the class. We've seen that when an MIR buys a boat and races it, they do it because they like to race...not because they're trying to demolish the local competition! There is another factor to consider as well. And that's the effect of sail purchase limitations. We have similar restrictions to the J/105 rules on the the sails material, inventory and purchase frequency. I think these are wonderful rules. These have the result of reducing the incentive that sailmakers have in a fleet. I had a discussion with Barry Carrol when the Mumm 36 was introduced about sail inventories. In our case we're limited to a mainsail, an all-purpose nylon spinnaker, and #1, #2, and blade jibs (and most folks have never replaced their #2s and #3s). He rattled off a series of about 10 sails that would be the normal inventory for a Mumm. There were 4 or 5 spinnakers alone! Now there is some incentive for sailmakers! This lets the rockstar play off the emotions of the boat owner, saying "if you only had the right drifter or blast reacher or dead downwind dacron chute, we could wipe up the fleet." And of course, don't worry about the fact that the sail might explode the first time it empties and fills! The rules in both our classes put a lid on those kinds of perverse incentives. I also have an anecdote to pass on about sailing against a former Olympic medalist at the helm of a J/30. It was the proudest moment of our (relatively short) racing career. We were just ahead of him, on the final upwind leg of a distance race, when he started a tacking duel and tried to get us screw up while we were trying to cover him. He must have tacked 20 times in the last 3-4 miles of the race. We managed to hold off his attack and finished in the silver! It was a real high for everyone in the crew. Nothing can beat that feeling. I think most people want to race against people who will challenge them. When Charlie Scott (a Cheseapeake sailing legend) bought a J/30 in the early 90's, it didn't hurt the fleet - quite the contrary, it served to help bring others into it. It showed the entire Chesapeake Bay racing populace that this was the best competition on the Bay. And specifically that it's a competition of sailing, not of an arms race with the biggest wallet capturing the trophy. What we both need to prevent is what Dean Dietrich mentioned about the Express fleet, the transient rockstars. It's demoralizing to have a group of ringers come in, take over a boat (by throwing off all the usual family and friends crew), and proceed to walk away with the race. They hop around from boat to boat leaving the other fleet members to wonder why they even bothered to show up for the race. That's a perscription for destroying a fleet. My advice would be to try to exercise some restraint for a while. Build up the one-design racing fleets. Then see what the effect of the current rules are for a while. Then if they're clearly not working, look around at what the alternatives might be. And don't discount the "do nothing" alternative. You may find that the rules that you currently race under, while imperfect, may be the best of the compromises. Good luck! Joe Ruzzi <jmruzzi@tasc.com> Alexandria, VA USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 22:40:01 (EDT) To me the object is to become the best sailor you can , The way to get better,as in most other sports, is to sail against the best compitition available. I'm sure most of us who have been sailing for a while have more silver then shelf space.. The real losers are the guys that let pros run their boats for them because they learn nothing,.With respect to "rock stars", I say "Bring em on"! Glenn Robbins <GFR49@aol.com> annapolis, Md USA - Wednesday, April 15, 1998 at 21:06:59 (EDT) Regarding the issue of pros on board, Bob Johnstone's well thought out piece fails to address the reason why some fleets feel it necessary to bar pros. Let me relate my experiences when I was in the Express 37 fleet. After I bought my boat, I was approached by someone who is now an international rockstar. This person had an "affiliation", but was not a salesman, with a major sail loft. He told me he would like to sail on my boat as a tactician. In my naivette, I was totally blown away. Sure, we would love to have you, I said. But it became apparent that this rock star would only continue to sail with me if I purchased sails with the affiliated sail loft. Duh........ The picture finally began to emerge; those boatowners that committed all of their sail resources to a major loft might.....and I emphasize "might", have some one of caliber on their boats as crew chief and tactician. This not only meant he would tell you which way to steer, but also meant he would have his pro buddies on the boat,who obviously were a cut above the rank and file. In short, my rockstar and his buddies took over my boat. Another new owner in the fleet, more successful than I,took the same approach with a major bay area sail loft. I suspect their effort was more intensive than mine, because all of their sails were new and the boat itself was totally redone. They finished second to the perennial fleet champion, who had his own deal with a loft, but is a very good sailor in his own right. What is the moral of the story? There is tremendous pressure on the boat owners to get hooked up with a sail loft. And it doesn't stop there. If you have a rigger on your boat, you obviously have your rigging done by him, and so forth. And you know what? THIS WASN'T ANY FUN! Instead of competing on the race course with guys who worked nine to five in the office, I was competing with guys who made their living sailing. And the worst part is that the real competition was not on the water, but in sucking up to the pros so they would commit to your boat. The playing field wasn't level, and the only way to level it was to write some big checks. So I sold my boat and bought a J/105, and I am having a ball. And apparently the fleet is too, because we are now up to 22 boats, having virtually doubled in size in the past two years, and we have a strict no-pro rule in our fleet(#1). What's the downside? We don't have a pro on board to let us in on the tricks of the trade? How about organizing a race clinic? This is a great forum for people to learn and the sailmakers will often participate in order to boost the sport and get their product out. There are pros and cons to everything, but my experience with two fleets, one pro and one non pro, convinces me that our fleet is going in the right direction. Dean Dietrich <deanj105@aol.com> Tiburon,CA, CA USA - Tuesday, April 14, 1998 at 22:57:36 (EDT) I note from the forum that questions are being raised about pros and sailing industry people involved in one-design classes, presumably questioning J/105 class policy on the matter. So that owners may develop their point of view with some knowledge of where the current owner-driver rule came from, I thought it might be useful to offer my thoughts. First, caution is advised. This is an extremely complex issue that's gone unresolved since the start of history. J/105 owner/driver rule, while maybe not perfect, is better than any other formula I'm aware of in the sport...if you care about building a strong local fleet base for the class. Anti-pro, anti-industry fads have the potential of rolling back current local fleet growth and a promising future for the J/105 as it rapidly becomes the world's most successful "big boat" one design class. It's not up to the J/35 yet, but at a boat per week it's getting there fast. As you will see from the inside front cover, double-page spread J/105 ad in the June Sailing World, we're pushing the program hard. It's always a temptation to re-engineer a successful formula, but please resist the urge. I don't know of any other boat in the current market environment that's come close to having such a long life-cycle and continues to sell/grow at near introductory new product rates. The sailing world is a funny place to do business. Communications within the industry are nearly instantaneous and they are either for you or against you. The best advertising in the world will not overcome a negative beat from jungle drums. By way of example, recent owner research shows that 1/3 of all J/105s are sold as the result of a sailmaker's endorsement. I quake in my boatshoes to think what would happen if the J/105 Class pronounced them "personae non grata" as owners. Another disturbing element about this anti-pro/industry issue is the apparent reason for raising it in the first place. Making it easier to win for more people is a questionable goal in a sport where participation is motivated by challenge and learning more each time we sail. Presumably the theory goes like this: "Winning is everything", so let's make it easier for the less experienced or less talented general population to take home trophies. Then ipso facto participation will increase because more people have a chance to win. My guess is that "average" or "better than average" sailors are more likely insulted rather than motivated by such a gratuitous attitude. Is winning more important than relationships, challenge, the parties, learning, etc.? Doesn't the scale of performance just drop a notch with no more people winning AND no more locally "known" sailors at the parties? After all, there is just one 1st place, one 2nd place and one 3rd place trophy. Can we expect another, more limiting policy, to arise from the new 2nd tier if participation continues to decline? One of the biggest thrills of my life was finishing 7th in the Soling Worlds of 1971, sail past Paul Elvstrom and to end up ahead of Lowell North with our all-family crew of my wife Mary and brother Rod as crew. The thought never entered my mind to introduce a resolution at the Soling AGM to ban Elvstrom and North from the class. No 1st Place in their absence could beat that 7th! Sailing maybe the only sport in the world where a 12 year old on a given day can pick the right shift and beat an Olympic Gold-Medalist. Could there be a greater thrill or more lifelong motivating moment??? The J/105 is way ahead of the Farr 40 in terms of participation and has a brighter future. Different from the Farr 40's, J/105 is a local fleet, not major international regatta type class. The Farr 40 class is a very exclusive club of wealthy owners, who are acting to keep it that way...even though they've made a big error in allowing "amateur" gold-medalists to steer rather than just owners. They would be doing "far" better with a J/105 owner helming rule which gives some crewing "pros" the chance (a little motivation) to steer at other than the start, upwind and at all turning marks. If one really got intentional about exluding "world class helmspersons", how does one classify owners? Eliminate anyone who's ever won a major trophy? The US Sailing categories, exemplified by the Tom Lihan, Gary Knapp, Stu Johnstone category I status is not the answer. What does one do with a Ding Schoonmaker or other amateurs who spend more time sailing and are more talented than 90% of the people in the industry? Managed the way they've been to date, the Farr 40 Class is not likely to grow much beyond where they are. The great and exciting thing about the J/105 Class is that it's growing in the only place that one-design can really prosper, growing on a local fleet base. You don't have to spend 1000's of $$ shipping it around the world to find a one-design regatta. Unlike the Farr 40 international program, it is more dependent on local relationships/politics and enthusiasm to succeed. Local classes which stiff-arm the top resident sailors who promote the sport, whether they be sailmakers, chandlery employees, brokers, designers, sailing instructors, riggers, mast makers, et al exclude those people who have managed to turn their avocation and joy of sailing into a vocation and who are potentially cornerstones for building a strong fleet. They may not buy a J/105, but there's no point in rejecting them on general principles to the point where they might take it personally and "feel" better about the attitude of people in a competing class. Key is that the J/105 class avoid the "pro short-timers" who jump into major regattas to helm a boat with a new suit of sails with no prior/major commitment to building the class...just win a trophy. Everyone understands and buys into a rule that keeps that problem under control. I would hope that the local J/105 fleet I'm in the process of pulling together in Charleston SC, is not going to tell me I can't sail if I plunk my $$$ down on a new boat and have been a principal, enthusiastic, and committed founder of the organization. 'Cause I'm really looking forward to sailing one again and getting the J/105 program going in the Southeast. What made me get involved in the sailboat business(and out of the Fortune 500 packaged goods marketing game at Quaker Oats) was the fun and surprising success I had getting a 25 boat Soling Fleet and later a 28 boat 470 fleet started in Wilmette IL. On reflection, the key to success was enthusiastic and direct ownership involvement of local leaders (gurus) in sailing. My initial co-founders of the Soling Fleet were M&N sailmakers Dick Stearns (Olympic Silver Medalist - Stars) and Bruce Goldsmith (World Champ - Lightnings) and harbormaster Bill Wente, each of whom became an owner. I was the only one not in the marine business. There's no way that fleet would have gotten off the ground without the prestige, cache, interest created by the demonstrative support of those so-called "pros" being owners. Forget the national scene. Look at what happens locally. The largest, growing, most active fleets will be those which are all-inclusive to those owning boats. As a past-Director of US Sailing and Chairman of US Sailing's One-Design Class Council, my conclusion is that there's been a lot of time wasted on this MIR subject and a surprising amount of support for considering concepts which bear no relationship to the realities of local one-design growth dynamics. To me this is disheartening and sad. To put this in perspective, and learned from brainstorming sessions with J/24 Fleet Governors trying to determine the keys to success and failure of their fleets: Nothing will discourage fleet participation faster than an overly-serious, well-meaning, take-charge fleet captain who is intensive about: establishing a too aggressive race schedule, requiring too many races to qualify for a fleet championship, imposing too many rules, insisting on perfect windward/leeward courses, forgetting to schedule and organize the parties (which should come first), not sharing the leadership...you get the picture. What works best is a far more relaxed program with crazy races like "full-moon couples" races, point-to-point for lunch then race back. As Bill Lee said to me once, "The problem with sailboat racing is that all this perfection in terms of race management, courses, and rules promoted by US Sailing has taken the luck out it, the fun out of it and wrecked participation." The fun is in sailing the boats not in controlling the conduct of races. My pet analogy is that sailboat racing is analogous to musical chairs, people going around in circles with someone being left out when the music stops. Those excluded early on, don't care amidst all the hilarity. It's great fun when the focus is on the party, not on the game. But, imagine how miserable the game of musical chairs would be if there was no party, if instead there was a strict set of rules about cutting in, hesitating too long in front of a chair, protest hearings, if it was played on an asphalt playground on hot Saturday afternoons under the auspices of a uniformed committee of overseers and there were major trophies awarded. I suppose in that scenario there would be talk of banning furniture makers and musicians, or even people who earned money or won prizes for being quick or agile like gymnasts and ballerinas. A key strategy from Day I to building J Boats fleets has been to think like a revolutionary. How would one start a revolution? You have to start with an individual, then build a local cells based on the enthusiasm/persuasiveness of the local rep, e.g. capture the heart of our dealers (and sailmakers), who otherwise didn't think our peformance-oriented boats would sell. We knew that once the dealer bought a boat and started to enjoy it, he would leverage his contacts of like-minded performance sailors into starting a fleet. The key to selling anything these days is RELATIONSHIPS/COMMITMENT and ENTHUSIASM. I think it is reasonable to conclude from a marketing viewpoint that to discourage local sailing leaders from owning our boats would seriously dampen their enthusiasm, their contact/relationships with owners and thus local fleet growth and resale value. (The revolutionary cell starts to contract) The local guru reward from their involvement is not so much monetary, except from a survival viewpoint, as it is the fun of sailing the boats and being part of the best fleet in the sailing community...to be part of the NEW, revolutionary movement. The J/105 owner-driver rule is no casual thing, it comes about as the result of Rod's and my experience in two Olympic Classes and all preceding J Boats classes. Thus far it seems to work better than other formulas. Any recommendation to change it should come with a comparable backup in terms of experience in successfully creating and building one-design fleets and a listing of analagous case studies of success, demonstrating beyond any doubt that there's a more successful route to significant LOCAL fleet growth. Bob Johnstone <jjj@gwi.net> West Boothbay Harbor, ME USA - Monday, April 13, 1998 at 14:45:06 (EDT) For those interested in the issue of "pros aboard", I highly recommend http://www.sailingworld.com/procentr/procentr.htm where you will find a series of recent articles. Also, in this month's American Sailor it is noted that the Farr 40 class has barred Group 2 and 3 *owners* from steering (they allow up to four as crew). The Farr 40 is also considering prohibiting past Olympians and others with elite-level experience from steering even if they qualify as Group 1. For example, the same issue lists Hannah Swett (trimmer on America's Cup contender Mighty Mary and olympic wannabe) as a Group 1. Nelson Weiderman <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Tuesday, April 07, 1998 at 10:13:07 (EDT) Hey, I am looking for a good J-105 at a fair price. If any of you are interested in selling, I would be interested in hearing about it. I would like to go outside a broker as that just adds 10 percent to the price. I am located in Los Angeles and sail out of Long Beach. I sould my other boat last year and need a good boat. Jim Henrickson (213-)343-2057 or e-mail I would prefer a tiller. James Henrickson <jhenric@calstatela.edu> Los Angeles, CA USA - Sunday, April 05, 1998 at 21:15:50 (EDT) OPINION: Serious J/105 sailors plan their racing campaigns well in advance. They order sails, upgrade their equipment, and arrange for crew based on the Class Association Rules. They spend serious money. The have the right to expect that the Rules will not change substantially during their sailing year. There is an urgent need to get consensus on major issues such as spinnaker size and pros onboard so that we don't develop into separate one-design classes for each fleet. This will not be easy, but is worth the effort to achieve. Fleets that diverge significantly from the National standard should not be invited to host national events. PROPOSAL: Changes to J/105 CA Rules should be proposed by 30 June for discussion on the website and then amended and voted on by 30 September for use during the following calendar year. National and regional organizers should be strongly encouraged to avoid gratuitous changes to the CA Rules in their Notice of Races and Sailing Instructions. NOTE: Current Rule 2.3 "The ExCom shall (i) keep members informed of proposed rule changes and activities (ii) seek member consensus in recommending rule changes to the copyright holder." Nelson Weiderman (#37 Kima) <nhw@ids.net> Wakefield, RI USA - Friday, April 03, 1998 at 15:38:47 (EST) How do people have their spinnaker halyards rigged? Mine has been rigged out of the higher-aft exit slot on the starboard side, to the aft turning block. The J/105 manual calls for the halyard to be rigged to the front turning block, but I don't think it says which slot should be used. Leading to the aft block runs the halyard behind the "cunningham" checkblock. Leading to the front turning block runs the halyard over the checkblock. Also, I'm thinking of installing a cam cleat on the mast for halyard. Does anyone have a suggestion for which slot and turning block should be used, and where the cleat should be placed? Stuart Burnett <srburnet@rmc.com> Richmond, VA USA - Thursday, April 02, 1998 at 17:09:13 (EST) McLube is great. We coated a Henderson 30 kite (which is huge) and it greatly improved our sets and jibes. I recommend it for all asymmetrics. Be sure to apply it outside though, the stuff isn't really good for you. A little goes a long way. The guys from McLube say that over application just makes it crack and fall off. They say it should last a season, but I doubt it. There is also silicone coated .75 nylon from Contender which can be looked into for the sailcloth itself. It's a little more expensive, but probably worth it. Tim Dawson <dawson@ids.net> Newport, RI USA - Wednesday, April 01, 1998 at 16:59:26 (EST) Open Forum entries from earlier. Back to the J/105 Class Association. Nelson Weiderman |